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Located in Boulder, CO, Northstar Transitions is a licensed and Joint Commission-accredited facility that serves men, women and families seeking a robust continuum of care for drug and alcohol use disorders.

Gina:   Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Harmony Foundation Podcast Series. I’m pleased today to be joined with Mike [Ferrell 00:00:05] and Bre [Walt 00:00:05] with Northstar Transitions out of Boulder, Colorado. Welcome.

Mike:   Thank you.

Bre:      Thank you.

Gina:   Good to have you both here. Before we dive into who Northstar is, lets talk a little bit about your backgrounds and what got you into the field of addiction treatment. We’ll start with you first, Mike.

Mike:   Okay. Yeah, so I got into the field of addiction treatment after college. I had gotten sober when I was 21, so that’s what got me interested. Throughout college, I worked on my own personal recovery, I went to 12-step meetings, and when I graduated college, I started working for another treatment center as a tech. I really enjoyed my work, and it was kind of a natural transition into starting my own program, trying to help people. I’ve been doing that for the past six years or so now.

Gina:   That’s great.

Mike:   Yeah.

Gina:   Giving back. How about you, Bre?

Bre:      I’ve always been fascinated in psychology. I majored in psychology at CSU, and I also have struggled through my own recovery with an eating disorder. My brother is in recovery from substances. The addiction part of this field was always kind of where I wanted to end up. I made my way through working with psych hospitals and other treatment centers, and now I’m here with Northstar.

Gina:   That’s great.

Bre:      Yeah.

Gina:   Well, we’re glad you’re both here. So, let’s talk a little bit about Northstar. Northstar has this really great continuum care. It starts off with a social detox and soon residential. We’re going to be talking for a few minutes about that. But you currently have day treatment and IOP. Bre, can you tell us a little bit about the services? If someone were interested in treatment at Northstar, what would they expect when they would come into your program?

Bre:     Sure. We are going to be expanding the residential program. Currently, we have seven beds for men, which they can have the social detox, as well as the residential level there. The residential level is really kind of a stabilization period to get re-acclimated to being a sober person. It’s a lot of grounding skills. They spend about 30 days in that level of care, and then they transition into our day program, which is 30 hours a week. They can either live in our sober living. We have currently four men, hopefully soon to be women as well. Or they can live at home and commute. But a big piece of our programming is experiential, so we try and incorporate a lot of hands-on experiences, as well as the CBT, DBT, and trauma processing that we’re doing in group.

Gina:   You guys are obviously primed to be in a great location in Boulder, where you can take advantage of a lot of the outdoor experiential. Have you taken advantage of that and used it?

Bre:     Yes. Our PHP clinician, Robin, she is a former wilderness therapist, so she uses the outdoors as much as possible. That’s really great for our clients as they move through their journey to be able to have those familiar places with sober experiences there too.

Gina:   Great, great.

Bre:     Yes.

Gina:   So, we had the pleasure last year of having [Fatina Cannon 00:03:04], who’s the clinical director for the Northstar IOP program here, and she spent time talking about working with young adults. Obviously, with her experience, it seems to me that you all lean into working with young adults. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like?

Mike:   Sure, yeah. Being that we’re in a college town in Boulder, we naturally had a younger clientele. We decided in our early years that we were going to focus on young adults, so we initially limited the age range to 18 to 30 years old. We recently kind of expanded into treating anyone over the age of 18 that has a substance abuse disorder, but we remain focused and have a track essentially that treats young adults, where young adults are primarily the ones that are in our sober living homes. We have a morning IOP that tends to still be the 18-to-30-year-old range. A lot of our clients that are taking a leave of absence from CU Boulder or from another college, they tend to be in our PHP programming, whereas our evening IOP, which is on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays from 5:30 to 8:30, tends to skew a little bit older. It’s people that are in school full-time, have full-time jobs, are parents, and have childcare responsibilities during the day. They’re able to come in the evening and do IOP in the evening.

Gina:   That’s great that you have that flexibility for clients because there are some programs that don’t have that as a resource. So, you have something coming up that’s pretty exciting. This spring, you’re going to be opening up a new residential program. It’s called the Lodge.

Mike:   Yeah.

Gina:   Tell us a little bit more about that.

Mike:   The Lodge at Northstar is something that we’re very, very excited about. It’s a 6,000-square-foot lodge facility. It’s located on 53 acres. It’s about, I think, 10 miles west of Boulder, near a town called Jamestown. Like I said, it’s on 53 acres. It’s surrounded by thousands of acres of national forest.

The types of things that we hope to offer there are equine therapy, ropes course, sweat lodge. We hope to be able to use the landscape to do snow-shoeing and hikes during the day and be able to hold group outside on nice days. On cold and snowy days, we hope to be able to hold group inside by the fireplace. We’re going to have a full gym there. We’re going to have a massage therapist come in, acupuncturist. We really hope to provide just a safe container for people to get away from the city, to get away from distractions and thinking about jobs and other responsibilities that they’re going to have, so that they can just focus solely on their recovery for a 28 or 30-day period before they come down into our transitional housing.

Gina:   It’s great to have additional resources because there’s such a need out there.

Mike:   Yeah.

Gina:   We’re happy that you guys are going to be doing that.

Mike:   Oh, thank you.

Gina:   It helps with some of the pressure. So, Bre, Northstar is a friend of Harmony. Can you share a little bit about your experiences in working with Harmony?

Bre:     Yeah. Harmony’s been wonderful for us because … well, for many reasons. But we need to refer out frequently for medical detox because the social sub-acute detox is what we offer, so you guys have been wonderful for us to refer up to that level of care. Also, right now, while we’re in transition to opening a women’s residential, to have people come up here and be in that residential level of care has been phenomenal. And we’re not that far away, so even better.

Gina:   No, we’re almost neighbors, which is great.

Bre:     Yes.

Gina:   If someone were listening today, and they wanted to access services at Northstar Transitions, how could they get in touch with you?

Bre:     You would call our admissions team: 303-558-6400. You can also call me personally to talk through the programming, ask questions. We can talk through insurance as well. My cell phone number is 720-422-2998.

Gina:   Great. Well, thank you both for taking the time to visit with us.

Mike:   Thank you.

Bre:      Thank you.

For More Information About Northstar Transitions:
http://northstartransitions.com/

Gina:                     Hi everyone, welcome to the Harmony Foundation Podcast Series, and it’s my pleasure to be joined with Josh Rudder, who’s with the Colorado Center for Clinical Excellence. Welcome Josh.

Josh:                      Hi Gina, thanks.

Gina:                     It’s good to have you here.

Josh:                      Yeah, good to be here.

Gina:                     So, we’re really interested in hearing more about the center and what your specific work is, but before we do that, let’s talk a little bit about your background, and what got you into the field of behavioral health.

Josh:                      Yeah, good question. Kind of a long story, but I’ll try to keep it pithy. I experienced behavioral health first hand as a person finding my way in this world, and I guess long story short is, I found help where I didn’t think I would, and it changed my life, and somewhere along the way I was, “I wanna do this.”

And I followed a trail of breadcrumbs, one step after another, finally to a point where I could get some skills, where my skills could catch up with the intent, and my life is really improved dramatically and I just feel like I’m in the right place and so, I found myself here at the Colorado Center, working with people in recovery and addiction, and recovery from complex trauma and all sorts of difficult predicaments.

Gina:                     So you said, “Yes,” it sounds like you just kept saying, “Yes,” and it just kept moving you in the right direction?

Josh:                      Yeah, I did say, “Yes.” I had a friend who described it in his journey, of standing at the edge of the pool, and the pool had no water in it and he was gonna take a leap and trust that it would be filled. And somehow that struck a chord with me because I would say yes, and I had no evidence that this would actually work out, or I was doing the right thing. And sometimes there will be no evidence, and I had to trust and it’s working out really well.

Gina:                     I’m so glad. Well we’re certainly glad to have you part of the Harmony family. As we move into talking about the center, and what you all do, you’re one of nine providers within the center, correct?

Josh:                      Correct.

Gina:                     And you have this unique evidence-based approach that you do call FIT, feedback-informed treatment, and that was new for me, so I’m sure for some listeners it’s probably new for them as well. Can you describe what this FIT concept is about?

Josh:                      Yeah, absolutely, and I wanna say it’s not totally unique to us, there is a national and international body that practices, there’s a lot of evidence, there’s just nobody in our area. So, yeah, feedback-informed treatment is a thing that unifies our entire practice of individual clinicians, and no matter how we work the treatment process, no matter what our education background training is, this unifies us, and the feedback-informed treatment model is a way for us to measure outcomes and the alliance with the therapist, because all evidence, all results are local. So if all nine of us did the same treatment protocol, the results would be different, because it follows the therapist.

A lot of people know that, but how do we actually account for that? So we use ultra-brief measures that have been validated with a big enough sample size to really understand the affect, and we track how people are doing in therapy and then we track the alliance at the end of every session.

Gina:                     That’s fantastic, and it’s great because for somebody who’s looking for treatment, often times there’s this big question mark of, is this actually gonna work? You know, is this really gonna provide any kind of real value to me. But the fact that you are creating accountability for yourselves and building in this FIT model, you’re providing reassurance to your clients, to your patients, and letting them know that, we want you to be successful and here’s what we’re creating.  I wish we saw more of that happening, but I don’t think we do as much.

Josh:                      Yeah, and it makes sense, and I would say two things in response to that is that, the response that I’ve received and generally we receive is one of real interest and appreciation almost like fresh air, “Oh, we’re gonna do this together? Wow.” So that’s really cool. And then there’s also some trepidation as a provider. I’m gonna be asking somebody, and creating this culture of feedback, where I’m gonna be asking, “Am I doing okay? Am I doing well?”

And that can be really revealing.

Gina:                     A good thing though because it takes away some of that power differential too, so it helps the client feel like this is a collaborative effort, and that it’s not just about clinicians being up here, and the client being down here.

Well, it’s a really impressive model and I’m really taken by that. I also learned on your website that you have a multi-dimensional approach to treatment within the center. Can you talk a little bit about how does the practice work to streamline services for individuals seeking help? So if someone were calling in, because you’ve got this great approach with all these different clinicians that are doing different things, how do you all discern which clinician is the best clinician for that client?

Josh:                      Yeah, great question. I think the first thing that I appreciate about the model and the group itself, the Colorado Center, is that we actually meet weekly as a group. A lot of the group therapy-type of agencies will share resources but not take the time out of their day, out of seeing clients, out of seeing patients, out of running groups, whatever it is, to actually meet together. So we have a clinical meeting, we talk to each other, we understand. Even when we don’t want to.

So we know about each other, we know how we practice and, as much as we can, we know how the other people feel in the group, which is really important in treatment. So when someone calls in, we have somebody that’s dedicated each month that’s a clinician, that understands how to do intakes and also understands the rest of the group, so will do the phone screen, will schedule the intake, and generally will refer in-house as appropriate for the best potential fit.

And then having so many providers, if after a couple of sessions it’s not right, we see that in the feedback measures, then we can fire ourselves.

Gina:                     And re-direct them somewhere else.

Josh:                      And re-direct in a way that’s kind, warm, that’s in alignment with the person’s goals, and we’ll do it collaboratively of course. But we don’t wanna get to a point where we need this outcome, we need this client. We don’t wanna be invested in me only, having this result for this person.

Gina:                     That’s great, and that speaks to the ethics of the organization as far as looking at what’s the best need for the client, at the end of the day. Which not a lot of people are open to, but I certainly see where you’re coming from.

So this is your first visit to Harmony. What are your thoughts?

Josh:                      Yeah, I knew of Harmony, and kinda through the grapevine and being in the recovery world, especially. And so I had this preformed notion, and I kinda already held it as the gold standard.

Gina:                     Oh, thank you.

Josh:                      And so you had a high bar, and I think so far I can say honestly it’s lived up to that. My first impression is that it’s a warm inviting space. I know that’s something that I strive for, it’s probably why maybe I’m looking for that where I go. I also really appreciate how important that is in recovery and in this work, and needed, so I’m always looking for that. And it’s a lot of little things. And I just feel like you all have done the little things.

Gina:                     Thank you.

Josh:                      And through some of the questions I’ve asked, I’m getting that idea of constantly checking ourselves, kind of like we do, to see what else could we do, how’s this actually working. So I like that.

Gina:                     Thank you for that, and we appreciate it and we’re equally excited about building that rapport with the center as well.

Just quickly about your practice though, so can you talk a little bit about what you do in your practice and the type of client that you typically look to work with?

Josh:                      Yeah, so the type of client that I typically work with has experienced some dramatic events in their life, whether as a child or an adult, or both; they struggle often times with problematic substance use, or relapse, addiction and anywhere along the scale of contemplating, barely contemplating that this might be problematic, all the way to knowing that this is a problem and not being able to find ways to rectify it. So, anywhere from ages 15 up-

Gina:                     Both men and women?

Josh:                      Yeah, any gender identity, individuals, couples and I also do a lot of group work as well. All of my work is also informed by trauma-informed care guidelines, published by SAMHSA, I think that’s just really excellent guidance right now. We’re always trying to improve how we can better trauma-informed care, so that’s something that is near and dear to me. So I work from that model as well.

Gina:                     And you also cover substance abuse as well?

Josh:                      Yeah, so I thought I mentioned that! Yeah, substance abuse as well. That’s the primary focus.

Gina:                     Great. So if someone were wanting to access services today, and listening to this podcast, how could they get in touch with you all?

Josh:                      Yeah, so my suggestion is to go to the website, which is www.thecoloradocenter.com, and then call us at our main line, 303-547-3700, and probably will leave a message there. One of our intake or forward screen clinicians will reach out and begin that process. And we also, unlike a lot of places, we will publish a lot of information to our website, I think that’s really helpful. Actually a lot of information, including videos of all of us, with the idea that you can get a feel for how we might be, other than just the basic written information. So I think that’s helpful, as well.

Gina:                     Yes, very much so. People tend to go there first before they make their decision, so that’s great.

Josh:                      Yeah.

Gina:                     Well thank you so much for taking the time to visit with us at Harmony, and we look forward to working with you.

Josh:                      Yeah, thank you so much, I appreciate it.

Gina:                    Hi everyone. Welcome to the Harmony Foundation podcast series and it’s my pleasure to be joined today with Jessamine Martin, Dr. Jessamine Martin with the Colorado Center for Clinical Excellence. Welcome.

Dr. Martin:    Hi, thank you.

Gina:                   So good to have you here. Before we get into talking about your background, let’s talk a little bit … or at least about the Center, let’s talk a little bit about your background and how you got into the field of behavioral health.

Dr. Martin:    Sure. You know everyone has their own unique story to that. For me, it was going to college and as I took more and more psychology classes, realizing that it was endlessly fascinating, and it was a field where I felt I would be continually challenged to learn and grow as I go. And I love working with people, of course, you kind of need to be working in this field. And yeah, it’s something that I feel like I would never get bored and people will never cease to surprise me in so many wonderful ways.

Gina:                   And so you do some specific work on dialects and so when I was reading your bio through the Center’s website, you talk about this nature of dialects and that was interesting to me. So can you tell me more about that so other people can kind of get an understanding of where you’re coming from with that?

Dr. Martin:    Definitely. So it comes from the core theory of dialectical behavior therapy, which is what I mainly practice with. And a dialect is when you have two opposing wants or needs that are both true and both valid and having that dialect often builds tension between the two because we feel pulled to have to choose one or the other or often people can judge themselves for wanting two things that seemingly can’t exist at the same time. And so I work with clients to identify the dialects that they’re living with on a daily basis that they might not even realize they have and help them resolve that tension. That doesn’t necessarily mean having to choose one over the other. It can mean just being kinder to yourself and more understanding of what’s contributing to your emotional distress.

Gina:                    Mm-hmm (affirmative) and so you use this great example, which I related to, which is wanting to lose weight but still having that craving for pizza.

Dr. Martin:     Oh yeah.

Gina:                    So is that a good example?

Dr. Martin:     It’s a very common one.

Gina:                    Yeah.

Dr. Martin:    Others can be walking away from an abusive or negative relationship and then deeply missing that person and wanting to go back to them even though there’s part of you that knows that wasn’t good. It can even be socially as well. Like you might be out with friends having a great time and then also there’s a part of you that just wants to curl up at home and have a quiet night and so it can really … it can take many different forms.

Gina:                   Yeah. And it’s interesting because we probably could go into a whole other kind of conversation about the shame that comes up …

Dr. Martin:    For sure.

Gina:                    … when you can’t meet those needs and you know there is that sort of tension that happens between the two so … Well the other thing I thought was very interesting about you is that you have this passion for dancing.

Dr. Martin:    Yes.

Gina:                   And so, why is that important to you?

Dr. Martin:    Specifically I do social partner dancing and this is things like swing dancing, blues, tango, contra, there’s a whole community in this. I started dancing when I was 14 and I feel that has positively impacted so many things in my life. Things like physical health or sense of balance. I’m very tall and gangly and I feel like I would be infinitely more clumsy if I hadn’t started dancing when I was a teenager. And there’s also just this deep community within it … you meet people and you’re a dancer and you’re in and then it’s like you know people around the country and I actually did my dissertation on social partner dancing.

Gina:                    Oh.

Dr. Martin:    And while I didn’t get very many significant results, it did really open my eyes to the community aspect of it and so I see dancing, specifically social partner dancing, as helpful in so many different areas. Like, if someone has social anxiety, it’s a warm, welcoming community that fosters safety. Or if someone wants to get in better physical shape, it’s crazy cardio, and you don’t feel it. You’re really squatting the whole time and you don’t feel it. I just feel like it can touch so many different areas of someone’s life.

Gina:                   Well I think we’re all having a hard time these days in learning how to be comfortable in our bodies. I think just turning the radio on in my house and dancing in my house makes me uncomfortable. So it’s like, how can we move past that inhibition of using our bodies in a way that’s meaningful and healthy. So I think that’s great.

Dr. Martin:     It’s body awareness, it’s body … loving your body and appreciating what your body does for you. Dancing can help that as well.

Gina:                    Well you’ve talked a little bit about your modalities and how you work with clients and so … but we haven’t talked specifically about what your area of specialty is. So if someone were calling in to the Center and looking for somebody like you, what would say the type of client is that you work with?

Dr. Martin:      Mainly adults, I do work with teenagers ages 12 and up. But mostly I do individual therapy with adults and I try to be open to a wide variety of what you’re struggling with and what you want to work on. I try not to box in my clients of, like, let’s make your goals and then get to them and, like, kick you out the door.

Dr. Martin:       I strive to have therapy be what they need in the moment and so for some clients, that is that they need concrete skills and they need structure and they need a sense of like okay this is where we’re headed and for others, they need a space to just be uncomfortable and be weird and not know what they’re doing and I can help them find some guidance in that but also increase comfort with that.

Gina:                     That’s great. That’s great. So this is your first visit to Harmony. What are your thoughts?

Dr. Martin:      It’s amazing. I was surprised at how big the grounds are and how spacious it feels and, you know, Estes Park is just beautiful. Being right next to mountains and I’m lucky in that I’m seeing in with fresh snowfall so it’s very picturesque right now. And yeah, just talking to all the staff and all the different sections of staff. Everyone seems equally passionate about the individuals, about individual care and tailored care and that’s a message I got continually from everyone is … when we’d ask them, oh, what’s your approach to this aspect … case worker and such … everyone said it depends on the person. Depends on that particular person and their needs and their situation. And I think that’s great.

Gina:                     Well thank you. And I think that our relationship with you, as an independent clinician as well as working with the Center, is going to be great. If someone were looking for access to your services and they wanted to get in touch with the Colorado Center for Clinical Excellence, how could they get in touch with you?

Dr. Martin:      Couple of different ways. Our main phone line 303-347-3700. That will connect you to one of our clinicians, and they will call you back in less than 24 hours and do like sort of a 15 minute phone chat and if you’re a good fit with them, they can schedule an intake right there. If not, then we, as a group, there’s nine of us all together, we communicate together, and we really strive to find the best fit for someone. That being said, people can also go to our website, www.thecoloradocenter.com and you can click on any of our faces, and you’d just get a plethora of information about all of us. And you can also research the methods that we use as a group as well. And then for me personally, my direct line, my direct number is 303-547-3594 and, again, you would call that number, leave a voicemail, I will call you back in less than 24 hours. I strive for less than three hours or somewhere in there.

Gina:                      Well, we really appreciate you taking the time to come up and visit with us. Thank you Dr. Martin.

Dr. Martin:      Thank you.

Gina:                                     Hi everyone. Welcome to the Harmony Foundation Podcast series. It’s my pleasure, today, to be joined with James Abrams, who’s with the Colorado Center for Clinical Excellence. Welcome, James.

James Abrams:                Hi. Thanks.

Gina:                                     It’s good to have you here.

James Abrams:                It’s good to be here.

Gina:                                     We are certainly very interesting in hearing about this unique model of what you do with addiction treatment. Before we have conversations about that, let’s talk for a few minutes about your background, and what got you into the field of behavioral health.

James Abrams:                Sure. Yeah, I mean, that’s a big question. I could do a couple hours [inaudible 00:00:28] that.

Gina:                                      Yeah.

James Abrams:                 I think the short version is, before I got into this, I wanted to be a teacher. I wanted to be a professor, actually, ’cause I wanted to help people learn about the things that had been so helpful in my life. As I got closer to that goal, I realized, the kind of teaching that you get to do as a professor, really wasn’t gonna get any of the meaningful information across.

I just thought about it. I thought, “What’s most important, to me, is getting the meaning through.” The best way to do that, is one-on-one, just be with people, and be there to help them sort it out, themselves. It’s not about my brain. You know?

Gina:                                     So, being a facilitator of their behavior change, really kind of helping them …

James Abrams:                Yeah. Just, their values change, and their self-exploration. All of it. To be there to be curious about them, almost is a way to show them they can be curious about themselves.

Gina:                                     Yeah. You’ve got a great segue into my next question, which is talking about this idea of curiosity related to some of the principles of Buddhism that you use in the practice that you’re doing. A lot of times, when you’re talking to people in the field of addiction treatment, it’s usually just this very scientific, concrete, CBT, DBT type of approach. You have incorporated the Buddhist principles of mindfulness and existential therapy, into the work that you’re doing, with people with substance abuse. Can you talk a little bit about what that looks like, for a client that might be coming in to your practice?

James Abrams:                Yeah. I’ll try.

Gina:                                      Gonna try and condense it, in a very-

James Abrams:                 Yeah.

Gina:                                     … short period of time.

James Abrams:                 I mean, like you said, there are some more rigid approaches, like CBT, DBT, even ACT. I think those work well. They’re just not the approach that feels right for me.

For me, it’s more about … I think that behavior change comes as a result of values change. Right? The value changing comes as a result of mindful awareness of yourself, like, how do you figure out what actually matters to you, if you’re not paying attention?

What’s nice about the Buddhist principle of mindfulness, is that it’s totally nonjudgmental. It’s like you’re gonna feel and be whatever it is that you are, and that’s fine. That’s a message we could probably stand to get a lot more, in society, which is just that, you’re fine. You know? It sort of goes back to, there’s this old saying in analytic circles, which is that, “People come to therapy to find out what’s wrong with them. And they leave knowing that nothing is.” Right?

Gina:                                      That’s true.

James Abrams:                I think that’s the goal. For me, mindfulness, that’s the path to that goal.

Gina:                                      One of the things that I’ve learned through my meditation practice, is understanding that your thoughts are not who you are.

James Abrams:                Right.

Gina:                                     And, learning how to be mindful about your thoughts, and not judging them, but just accepting them and letting them go.

James Abrams:                Yeah.

Gina:                                     Which I think a lot of people, particularly in addiction, struggle with, because they self-identify around their thoughts.

James Abrams:                Right.

Gina:                                     Your focus is working specifically with substance use disorders, and one of the things that you and I have talked about, is this idea of relapse prevention, and looking at relapse prevention as it is in the industry of addiction treatment. Why is it important to you, to work with this type of population?

James Abrams:                It’s almost hard to say. I just, I get it. Something about people who are struggling with substance abuse, or any kind of addiction. I work with a lot of behavioral and process addictions. It just makes sense to me. Like, “Yeah. You feel really bad. You want to feel better. You reach for the thing that’s gonna make you feel better … at least for a little while. I think addiction is really that simple.

Honestly, I’m at the point where I think everyone is addicted to something. Some addictions are more harmful and visible than others, but I really think it’s at the core of human experience. It’s just, “How do you feel better? And, do you get stuck feeling better, the same way every time? Does it help you or hurt you?”

Gina:                                     For somebody to come up against a provider like yourself, who is willing to be very open and accepting wherever they are in their recovery journey, is probably half the battle, sometimes, because they oftentimes feel so judged, based on their behavior.

James Abrams:                Right. I mean, so many people in the addictions recovery field … at least for a long time in the past, I think still today … are really committed to either like, “You’re bad. It’s a moral failure. Or, like, your behavior is bad.”

Your behavior might be harmful. It’s not bad. You’re not bad for doing it. I think that, in the end, everybody wants to get to health.

Gina:                                     You’re right. Yep. Good point.

James Abrams:               So, I’ll just help ’em get there.

Gina:                                     This was interesting, I read this about your bio … you have a master’s degree in Eastern Classics, and it looked at working with teachers from India, China, and Japan. How did those studies guide you in your practice with your clients today?

James Abrams:                You got all these big questions for this 10 minute interview.

Gina:                                      You can get it done.

James Abrams:                Yeah. I mean, that was sort of, like I said, that was the path for me. You know? There was just something about those eastern teachings, that just addressed what was going on for me in my life, so well, and ’caused such a massive shift in just how I felt … how I thought … how I acted. And, all towards things, that I’d been meaning to go to for so long. That sort of become the foundation for me. I mean, like I said, being able to sit in that nonjudgmental space, I think that’s everything. That’s where the healing comes from.

I mean, if we really want to get into the nitty gritty, there’s some stuff … if anyone listening to this is familiar with Dogen, the 12th century Zen Buddhist, a lot of his writing is about this thing that I think of as his idea that I call a tense juxtaposition. Right? Which is that, there are two things … there are two directions you wanna go in, or more. In your mind, that’s really possible. In reality it isn’t. You can only move in one direction at a time.

He would recommend, “Don’t do anything yet. Wait, and let that internal tension just build. And, it’s gonna be hard, but wait with it. Eventually it’s gonna collapse.” You will actually get a direction. You don’t have to keep guessing. You know? You-

Gina:                                      I can see what you’re saying.

James Abrams:                There’s a part of you that knows what you’re supposed to do.

Gina:                                      Yeah. That’s very true. I mean, I think I’ve actually experienced some of that, and never knew what it was. That’s great. This is your first visit to Harmony. No, it’s not. This is your second-

James Abrams:                It’s my second visit.

Gina:                                     … visit to Harmony. So, you’re a regular.

James Abrams:                All right.

Gina:                                     Tell us a little bit about your thoughts.

James Abrams:                I really, I think this place is great. As far as I can tell, it’s like the gold standard in Colorado.

Gina:                                      Oh. Thank you.

James Abrams:                Yeah. It just seems like, basically, all the bases are covered, and every time I talk to people, it’s like, “How do we cover them better?”

The detox seem so careful. The people involved seem like they care so much more than just, like, “Let’s get this junk out of your system.” The therapists, there’s people practicing so many approaches, I mean, any client is gonna find someone to stick to. It just seems so comprehensive.

Gina:                                     Thank you.

James Abrams:               Even talking to case management, it’s like they really care. They’re working hard.

Gina:                                     Yep.

James Abrams:                I like it.

Gina:                                     Thank you.

James Abrams:                Plus, it’s beautiful.

Gina:                                     Yeah. That doesn’t hurt it either.

James Abrams:                Yeah.

Gina:                                     That doesn’t hurt. If someone wanted to access services with you directly, whether it’s through the center or with you in private practice, what would they need to do?

James Abrams:                Oh. It’s real simple.

Gina:                                     Okay.

James Abrams:                You can give me a call. Two different numbers work. If you wanna get straight to me, call me at (720) 432-5680. If you wanna call the Colorado Center for Clinical Excellence, and chat it out with someone, you can reach them at (303) 347-3700. If you would prefer to email … eventually that will have to stop, but for an initial contact, you can reach me at J-C-O-L-E-A-B-R-A-M-S @gmail.com.

Gina:                                     Okay. Wonderful …

Gina Thorne: Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Harmony Foundation Podcast Series, and I’m pleased today to be joined with Jolene Park, functional nutritionist with Healthy Discoveries. Welcome, Jolene.

Jolene Park: Thanks, Gina.

Gina Thorne: It’s really good to have you here.

Jolene Park: Yeah. Thank you. It’s great to be here.

Gina Thorne: We’re really interested in hearing about Healthy Discoveries, but before we do that, I’d love to talk with you a little bit more about what it means to be a functional nutritionist. You work as a functional nutritionist here in Denver, Colorado. The concept was new to me, and so I’m sure it might be new to other listeners. Could you describe for us a little bit about what’s the difference between a traditional nutritionist and a functional nutritionist?

Jolene Park: Yeah. Yeah. From the functional side, I really look at how we can use nutrients in a functional way. For example, “What’s depleted? What’s deficient?” And then, “What’s showing up because of that?” That can be around cravings. You know, “Is magnesium depleted? Is B6 depleted?” And looking at certain foods. It doesn’t have to be supplements, but certain foods that can help the body come back into homeostasis and take us out of cravings or different symptoms, like having trouble sleeping or anxiety. There’s lots of different ways to look at that from a real functional nutrient standpoint.

Gina Thorne: Really, taking advantage of the physiology of the body and looking at it from that perspective, which probably has a bigger difference or impact on the brain, and how you actually work on a day to day basis.

Jolene Park: Right, because the body always wants to be in homeostasis, and so when something gets depleted or in an excess level, we don’t feel good. That gives us a real message, and then it’s going back and looking at that, of, “What do we need to kind of boost things back up to come to balance, or bring things back more to the middle ground?” There’s lots of detective work in that. It’s a fun practice, but it doesn’t have to be complicated, either. Just going back to the basics of, “How hydrated are you?” And, “How often are you eating?” And, “What exactly are you eating?” Doesn’t have to be complicated, but those little tweaks can make a big difference on a functional level.

Gina Thorne: It’s interesting, because I mean, I feel like we could go on a completely different tangent talking about this idea of how we ignore those things that our body is telling us every single day, and if we were more mindful in thinking about what the body is telling us, we probably would be in homeostasis on a regular basis.

Jolene Park: Yeah.

Gina Thorne: That’s interesting. We want to learn a little bit more about Healthy Discoveries. It’s a holistic approach to wellness, and as a person who’s abstinent from alcohol, which is one of the reasons why we’re here today, I want to talk with you a little bit about you were able to marry the passion of your functional medicine work with this idea of abstinence from alcohol. What was that journey like?

Jolene Park: Well, the functional nutrition side of it was integral. That was the root of it, when I chose to stop drinking myself three years ago, going back to the physical level. For instance, with brain chemicals. Knowing that my GABA, which is kind of my internal anti-anxiety brain chemical, was depleted, and was using wine in that way. What, then, are some functional nutrients that I can use to boost my GABA up, and not feel as anxious without needing to use wine? But then just from the whole Healthy Discoveries standpoint, I work with a 10-point model. I call it my Wellness Wheel, because even though as a nutritionist, I think nutrition is fascinating and it can be a great foundation, but it’s not the only piece. Eating right and exercise are really good things to do, but then it’s also, “How are we nourishing ourselves with relationships, and relaxation practices, and our leisure, and financially, career-wise? Our purpose, our vision, our spiritual wellbeing?” There’s nourishment and nutrients in all of those areas, not just food.
For myself, I’m always looking at that, and that’s what I am training and coaching others on too, of that bigger picture of nourishment.

Gina Thorne: Do you see the work that you’re doing with individuals that you come across, are they eager to find that kind of transition as well? Was this a new thing for you when you made this decision to say, “You know, this alcohol thing really isn’t a good fit for me and where I want to be in my life, and I think other people might feel the same way”? I mean, was this a new concept for you?

Jolene Park: You know, it was a little, because my decision to stop drinking was a very personal decision. Even as I was working in wellness, and health, and nutrition, I functioned really well. My drinking didn’t look problematic on the outside, but internally I knew that it was problematic for me. It was a very personal decision, and then the more I started speaking professionally about my personal decision, the more people came and said, “I identify with that kind of drinking. It doesn’t look end stage, or problematic on the outside.” Then it became using the tools that I had been using, and teaching, and found really beneficial for myself have also really benefited others.

Gina Thorne: That’s wonderful, and part of that is, for someone who’s a wellness coach, you obviously draw on life experience in working with your clients, and you also have partnerships with, I’m sure, lots of people who help you be successful in working with your clients. You have a great podcast that you do with Aidan? Aidan Connelley?

Jolene Park: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Aidan-

Gina Thorne: Aidan Donnelley-

Jolene Park: Aidan Donnelley Rowley.

Gina Thorne: Rowley. Yup. Both of you have done a great job in really kind of putting together this idea of looking at editing our drinking in our lives, and how do you do that, and so you’ve got some great topics that you’ve covered. Do you count or not count your days of sobriety, I guess? Or when you’re dreaming of drinking, which I was actually talking to a friend of mine about that earlier today, and she said, “Oh, yeah. I remember when I had dreams about drinking.” Very interesting topics. The impact of parenthood on drinking, another really good one, because I think a lot of people don’t think about that.
When you think about what you’ve done in your professional career to create partnerships with people like Aidan, how does that marry up to the work that you’re doing personally with your abstinence, and the communities that you’ve created, to be successful?

Jolene Park: Well, yeah. There’s many people. Aidan and I met on Instagram, and there’s a huge kind of movement about the sober-curious, looking at the dry life, rethinking drinking, and just that community in and of itself, of partnering up and collaborating, has been great. But then from the professional collaboration as well, of I’m also a trauma informed yoga instructor, and so collaborating with that professional side of things on the stress management piece, on the nervous system regulation side, from the emotions, the fight, flight, freeze. But then also referring back to clinicians and practitioners for more in-depth kind of … If there needs to be inpatient work, looking at that comprehensive approach, those collaborations are always beneficial.

Gina Thorne: Yeah, they are, and it just helps heighten your expertise and helps you have the resources, because nothing is done in a vacuum, right? We all have to work collaboratively together.
As somebody who’s worked with clients for a long time, in particular around this idea of abstinence, what do you believe is a fundamental tool that’s necessary for someone to be successful in this abstinence movement?

Jolene Park: You know, I think nervous system regulation is a biggie, and that can be on the physical side of things, with the actual what we’re putting in our body, replenishing ourselves with things like B vitamins, and minerals like magnesium. That can really help regulate the nervous system. But then also real, practical training techniques of not staying stuck in a fight, a flee, or a freeze stress response, and there’s some great practical ways, whether it’s using our breath, using different movements, different ways to kind of let the body unwind out of that, and it’s practical, but it’s on the physical level of retraining the nervous system and rebuilding new neural plasticity in the nervous system.

Gina Thorne: That’s great, which I think is very foreign to some people. I don’t think people think about it from that perspective very often, so I think that would be a really nice piece to consider, and I know you’re doing a TED Talk soon. That’s on November 11?

Jolene Park: November 2-

Gina Thorne November 2. Okay.

Jolene Park: … will be the actual TED Talk, and then it’ll be out on video about a month later, December of 2017.

Gina Thorne Oh, good.

Jolene Park: My whole talk is The Gray Area of Drinking: Nourishing Our Nervous System in a New and Revolutionary Way.

Gina Thorne [crosstalk 00:08:33].

Jolene Park: So I’ll talk all about this.

Gina Thorne: Yeah. It’s definitely revolutionary to me. It’s very unique. If someone wanted to access your services at Healthy Discoveries, how could they get in touch with you?

Jolene Park: HealthyDiscoveries.com is my website with all of my information. I have a Craving Brain coaching program, where I work with individuals on a one on one basis, and that’s all on my website, and my contact info, you can email me anytime, is there.

Gina Thorne Okay. Wonderful. Thank you so much. It was really nice to have a chance to talk with you.

Jolene Park: Thank you for the opportunity.

Listen to Jolene’s TEDx talk here:
TEDx Talk-Jolene Park